Sorry to hijack a thread again (because I simply treat this lovely venue as a forum - is that okay with whoever runs this?)

I have probably spent the last twenty years reading exclusively overseas content (I think my stage one BA NZ Lit course put me off NZ literature for that long - with my only fond memory being C.K. Stead, plus I enjoyed the Bone People). However, about four months ago for some reason I picked up Maurice Gee's Live Bodies and absolutely loved it. Then read Cox's 'Skylark Lounge' (was okay), but then read Gee's Plumb trilogy (Plumb; Meg; Sole Survior) and gained immense enjoyment from this.

So, last night, I started searching the Internet for NZ authors to read, but have come up with a dearth of ideas. I'm going to purchase Rachael King's first novel, but what after that?

According to forum members, what NZ novels of the last ten years should I be looking at: name of novel and author. (Not poetry).

[Kevin Ireland looks interesting, but hard to get much information about his novels.]

Actually, Bone People wasn't on my stage one lit course if I think about it, I read it after I left University.

Actually it is a bit of a pain Mark, but we'll forgive you once again for being irrelevant - only because you've asked a pertinent question: anyone wanting to know more about NZ books should, of course, go to the brand new, bells and whistles, NZ Book Month website - moi being the web master. This is a going to be an annual thing, courtesy of Booksellers NZ, which aims to let people like yourself know about the delectable diversity and quality of NZ books that are out there. I'll be putting up the next month's twenty featured new releases at the end of next week, along with all upcoming festival news. Plus we have events, news and blogs from various booky people. It's all just lovely really. So there you are: sorted.
http://www.nzbookmonth.co.nz

Hey Mark, I really enjoyed The Book of the Film of the Story of My Life by Wiiliam Brandt.. If you like short stories Carl Nixon or Forbes Williams are worth checking out. I've only read one short by Charlotte Grimshaw, but it was very good. She's got a novel or two as well but haven't read them yet. Emily Perkins' shorts in Not Her Real Name are also great.

Cheers
R

Great site Kathy. Thanks.

Did you mean irrelevant or irreverant? :)

Great site, Kathy. Mark, I'd recommend you read Damien Wilkins' Great Sporting Moments as an introduction to some of our best contemporary writers (short fiction, poetry) such as Barbara Anderson, Peter Wells, Lloyd Jones, Elizabeth Knox, Nigel Cox, Damien Wilkins.... I'd also recommend Witi Ihimaera's Bulibasha, Jones' Book of Fame (and his upcoming Mr Pip), Patricia Grace's Tu, Fiona Kidman's Captive Wife, Cox's Tarzan Presley (and upcoming Cowboy Dog), Wilkins' Little Masters (and upcomng The Fainter), anything by Charlotte Randall, Jo Randerson and Maurice Gee ... I'd better stop!

Oh my god, those libraries... I just had a look. I think mine would look a whole lot better with a glass dome (but wouldn't it fade the books?)

Kathy - I really like NZ Book Month web site, but it seems to be better on promoting new releases than providing information on books published in recent years. (Tell me if I'm wrong on this.)

The Dominion Post will soon be running a top 20 New Zealand books of the past 30 years: they're polling readers, writers, reviewers, broadcasters etc - so if Mark lives in Wellington, he should keep a look out for it. Otherwise, he could check out the lists of previous Montana Awards winners on the Booksellers or Book Council web sites, I guess, though that's only a fraction of the story. There's still no substitute for an informed bookseller in an independent store for advice on good reads.

And of course, Mark, you should add "Hibiscus Coast" to your reading list!

Hi Mark...can I add to and endorse Mary's recommended list?
Charlotte Grimshaw (CK' daughter) "Foreign City" - Janet Frame? (surely... at least "To the Island"), specifically "The Curative" by Charlotte Randall... and absolutely "Bulibasha" by Witi. Of course I'm a short story fan - so "The Best of Owen Marshall" and another little gem by Sue McCauley "Life on Earth"... happy reading!

Gotta say Kathy that sending Mark off to the Book Month website might not be exactly what he wants. 'Lovely' it might be but useful for reading recommendations? Not so sure. The new books on there are simply noted and blurbed not critiqued or measured against other books. Is there a real selection process and if so, who is deciding what goes on the site? Publishers maybe? Booksellers? Looks a bit like the old thing about 'any reading is great, folks! Isn't NZ a wonderful creative place! Buy our books!' Maybe that's the brief of Book Month to sell, sell, sell - let's just not confuse it with anything higher. (Sorry if I sound like a snob. I think I am a snob. I think there's a few of us.)

Thanks Mary Mac for your list. Charlotte Randall is someone I want to try. I'd add a Janet Frame novel or two maybe The Carpathians (her last one) or Daughter Buffalo (set in US and very strange).

Just one more recommendation - poetry - read Hone Tuwhare...

Thank you everybody. I've noted most of the recommendations down, so I can work through the list.

CK Stead's daughter sounds very interesting (from the point of view of comparing father - whom I enjoy - and daughter), plus I've not heard of many of the other writers.

(Oh, Janet Frame was on the compulsory reading at both High School and the NZ Lit course at Canterbury, and I think was what partly switched me away from reading a lot of NZ writers (not a dig, just a personal preference). And when I say 'turned me away', I don't mean 'yuck, I didn't like this, ergo, all NZ writers must be bad, I'll leave them out', which would've been immature. It was rather that I simply started reading overseas authors (especially Ian McEwan, Updike, Roth, etc) and given there was/is so much to read, never quite made it back to NZ writers - I was also away from the 'arts scene' here, so was not following new talent. I must make a subscription to Sport also as part of my reformation :)

And I course Leaf Salon helps, even though I've been hijacking threads, which I shall stop doing Kathy.

(Wish there was just straight out online general NZ literature forum though.)

And I wish I could go back and correct typos after I publish here. Never mind.

I have trouble with the links on the Book Month website, specifically the competition and the new releases. They just don't come up as links. Anyone else have this problem? Can it be fixed without me buying a PC (I'm a Mac girl)?

May I add a couple of comments?
1)The Book Month site is very much skewed to selling (hey Kathy, you've done the job, that's cool!)but not to promoting, per se, NZ books, NZ writers, NOR to helping communication between readers and writers- or writers and publishers - or publishers and readers or schoolteachers (primary, secondary) and pupil readers or, little fishes help us, critics, academic & otherwise and all the above-named parties-
2)and that's what Mark & I agree on, totally: there is NO forum for real communication between all parties interested in ANZ literature of all kinds, reading,
appreciation, criticism etc..

I thought LeafSalon would be it - sorry it isnt.

If Leafsalon's not that site, how should it be different?

First up, we hope that leafsalon has played a part in providing NZ's first forum of sorts for readers, writers and publishers to air their views - as Fergus said once, it enjoys a nice niche 'between public and around the dinner table' and we've really, really enjoyed it. If you could hear the whoops and hollers that come from the spare room sometimes when we're reading comments...

Chris and I didn't set out to create a literary forum. We had no idea what we were doing - leafsalon was just a stop-gap 'til our bookshop was built - but now that it has sort of created itself, we've been thinking that we need to make some changes. You all obviously need somewhere you can just put up thoughts as they come to mind that are not necessarily in response to, or relevant to, (!) an article. So - watch this space. It's just a matter of finding the time! But it won't be long.

As for NZ Book Month - yes, it is about selling books. Isn't that what writers want to do? Give us a break - it's the very first one, we're feeling our way, and there's lots we'd like to do but need the resources - and the support from the public - to do it. There are but three of us organising the whole shootin' match, and it's big. With huge potential to get bigger. Yes, we'd love to do a best books list, a Hall of Fame, podcasts, video, explore education ideas... and again, we will. There's some good funding in the wings and trust me, you will be hearing a lot more about NZ Book Month in the coming weeks. If you're really up for it, Timeout Bookshop in Mt Eden, Auckland is running a Top 20 favourite NZ books of all time competition for NZ Book Month - go to http://www.timeout.co.nz/ and scroll down.

What we can do at the moment is try to give everyone a taste of the diversity that's out there. The books we choose won't be to everyone's taste - they're not all to ours! But we need to be broad-spectrum. I've written leafsalon as a labour of love/hobby for two years, and I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't think it had a lot going for it in terms of a one-stop shop for getting the word out there about how superb NZ writing is. What's that BP strap-line? It's a start.

Totally understood, Kathy, and glad to get the clarification. My message wasn't a personal attack on you but I just thought that Mark was asking for readers to step forward and offer their faves - as they did - whereas the NZ Book Month site just offers blanket endorsement of whatever's on publishers' lists. But listen I do think you guys at Leaf Salon are offering a great service to needy nerdy picky sleepless people like me. Keep it up please!

Really good to learn that Leaf Salon will expand to a general forum (well, that's how I read it - and, Fergus, that is what isnt here at the moment.) But, Kathy, apropo your comment re sales of books 'that's what writers want': yes and NO: what we want is a much fairer proportion of sales - it may come as a surprise to readers, but BOOKSELLERS take far and away the largest amount of any book you buy - like 45%-
writers (if lucky) get 10%; publishers about 35%, and distributors the remanant...now, I wonder why the Booksellers organisation is driving this hype/campaign?
The BEST way to assist writers is to increase the proportion we earn from sold books-

Just adding to this, if any Leaf Salon readers are interested, I have just finished setting up a forum discussion website for crime and mystery writers at www.meancity.com. It's not specifically a site for NZ writers, but certainly all NZ writers with an interest in crime and mystery writing are welcome.

I've probably missed something here, like a really obvious link, but Kathy & Chris, where is the bookshop that you run?

In response to Mary Mac,
Am I the ony person who is bored with the constant promotion of Wellington writers especially from the Manhire school and VUP? It's simply lazy and shows a narrowness of thinking. And how can you recommend books not yet published? Does Mary Mac have inside knowledge or is she simply buying into advance hype? She does include two Auckland writers but I'd like to say that good NZ writing does not come to a grinding halt at Cook Strait. We seem to have more poets in the South Island than novelists but for contemporary writers how about Fiona Farrell, Owen Marshall, Christine Johnston, Emma Neale, and I could be accused of nepotism, but my partner Philip Temple. I'll let the Aucklanders speak for themselves. They're big enough.

Diane Brown: congratulations on stopping short of recommending your own work. Apart from that I don't understand your point. Owen Marshall overlooked? Fiona Farrell forgotten? Emma Neale? C'mon. You should get out more. Me? I'm sick of ALL provincialisms.

Thank you for your comments, Diane Brown, which deserve retort:

"Am I the ony person who is bored with the constant promotion of Wellington writers especially from the Manhire school and VUP?"

Bill Manhire is one of the most influential literary figures in NZ. VUP is one of the most influential publishers, and one that takes time to build relationships with the book media. That's one reason you hear a fair bit about, and from, those guys on this site. Some other Wellington literati are similarly 'on to it'.

LeafSalon is a labour of love, usually worked on late at night after our day jobs are over and the kids are in bed, and so we tend to work with what is at hand. Sometimes we hassle publishers to send us stuff that looks interesting, but many times we sift through what we have got and pick what catches our eyes.

We cannot control the location or inclination of our commenters - and nor would we want to. We also want our commenters to feel free to express opinions, as long as they are not abusive or libellous.

LeafSalon is actually based in Auckland, believe it or not. And we have given a lot of time to VUP's North Island counterpart, AUP, recently profiling Chris Price's Brief Lives, Paula Green's Flamingo Bendalingo, and Classic New Zealand Poets in Performance edited by Jack Ross.

Incidentally, a quick search shows that Fiona Farrell has been featured ten times on LeafSalon, Emma Neale nine times, and Philip Temple has been mentioned eight times since we started. Not to mention six for yourself.

Dear Diane Brown, The place a writer comes from has never been important to me and I'm surprised at the Wellington weighting. (I didn't think to check.) As far as I know, though, Charlotte Randall lives in Christchurch and Jo Randerson is really more of a gypsy than anything else. I was thinking of Mark, really, in using the Sport anthology as a good starting point and then following up with a few faves and a couple of promising new books that might also appeal to him. I called a halt at that point, but I could have gone on! Yes, Fiona Farrell's Book Book is a favourite and then there are writers like Stephanie Johnson (Auckland) and up-and-comings such as Ruth Pettis (Dunedin) and Linda Olsson (Auckland). But goodness, won't we all be trying to read Mr Pip? Just to see? And why would you miss Wilkins' new novel if you like his work? Crazy.

In response to Darryl as the Otago-Southland representative on the NZ Society of Authors as well as being the Co-ordinator and tutor of the Advanced Certificate of Creative Writing at Aoraki Polytechnic I do get out quite a bit. One advantage to living in a provincial location is that it gives you an objective perspective as to what is happening elsewhere, in Wellington and Auckland in particular. I have noticed that often uncritical attention is given to anything issued from the IIML school and its ancillary VUP. Perhaps the clue to this uncritical attention is in what Chris says, i.e. 'that Manhire and VUP take time to build relationships with the book media as well as the other Wellington literati who are similarly 'on to it'.' Does this mean that those who are most effective at self promotion will get the most attention, regardless of the quality of the product? This is not to deny Bill Manhire's enormous contribution to NZ literature or the often very good quality of VUP books, my point is simply that we need to balance judgements and perspectives and look further afield, than what is so often put in front of our eyes. I was not attacking Leaf Salon in any way, it's a great site and allows the opportunity for robust debates like this.

It's a shame someone can't recommend some books they like (or are looking forward to reading) without being accused of some kind of geographical agenda. Then everyone gets defensive and it all becomes quite pointless. I understand Diane's frustration, but in this case think the complaint is misdirected.

Rachael,

It may well have been misdirected in this particular case but after years of reading various lists of recommended books in which Wellington writers dominate I just lost my cool.

Fed cat. Had dinner. Cat acting strange. Cat violently ill on slipper. Looked on LeafSalon. Saw it was Bill Manhire's fault. Felt better. Kicked cat. Saw anger was Bill Manhire's fault. Everything make sense.

Diane - okey dokey. I don't check which city writers live in before reading or enjoying their work. It seems irrelevent to me. Good writing is good writing. But maybe I'm in the minority?

Thank you Anna! Laugh? Nearly bought you all a round. At the risk of plugging the evils of NZ Book Month yet again, this seems a good point to try and get you to read Graham Reid's blog about seeing the funny side: http://nzbookmonth.co.nz/blogs/graham_reid/default.aspx ...

It appears that defining good writing is upon the agenda. Goody. Where to begin? Let’s start with the Wellington Cru seeing as they are getting most of the column inches here. Are they good? Well some are and some aren’t. But, because they put themselves out there in the spotlight, they have to cope with positive and negative criticism – it’s par for the course. I found Diane’s comments, while provocative, quite legitimate – she, of course, is now being criticized, somewhat ruthlessly, and, at times, childishly, for simply sharing her point of view.

Now, back to my point. To define something as good writing simply because you like it is laughable – one must argue, convincingly, why the writing is ‘good’. Moreover, good writing should stand the test of time, and cannot, therefore, be decided upon overnight. New Zealand probably only has a handful of great writers – and a great deal more who are still proving themselves. Time will, in the end, sort the goats from the sheep.

What fun - I try and imagine Frank Sargeson and Denis Glover on Leafsalon whinging about that lame, over-emotional, (not to mention menstruating) Robin Hyde. There have always been turf (and gender) wars... you only have to read the latest Landfall! BUT I agree, let's talk about why a book is good.... and a perfect example is Nabokov's (he wasn't in Bill's class) "Lolita" - just read it for the first time - the most compelling read - the most distasteful subject - but the writer (you'll need a dictionary by your side and he is not even writing in his native tongue) has the reader spellbound with his protagonist (yep... you really do feel a sort of empathy). Now that, is good writing. Okay, so he's not a NZ writer...

I think what some people forget. with regards to Bill Manhire and these so-called Wellington writers, is that to be accepted into the MA in Creative Writing at Vic, a writer has to meet a specific standard of excellence, so s/he is likely to be a writer of publishable standard anyway. So, on a variation on the theme of GIGO, may I suggest that what Wellington produces is Good In, Great Out.

And, the graduates are not always, in fact not very often, Wellingtonians.

Jackie –

Are you suggesting that all the grads of the MA in Creative Writing at Victoria are great writers? While some are very good practitioners, I find your blanket suggestion ludicrous – some have published little, while others have published nothing, since graduation. I would argue, moreover, that entry into the course is not necessarily down to good writing – but a particular style of writing.

Steve: what style? (Not that I want to get in or anything.)

Okay - let me get this off my chest. I will always be grateful to Bill Manhire for two rejections from his MA (and no, this is not a sly dig at Bill). It is true! I'm grateful for the undergraduate programmes (poetry and short fiction) which he initiated and I got into - and for the encouragement I received from Greg O'Brien and Harry Rickets who ran those courses.
By not getting into the MA the first time (disappointed - gutted...), but I ended up doing Owen Marshall's course at Aoraki (20 weeks in Timaru) - outstanding - and then when I thought I was a sitter (story in "Creative Juices") - another rejection from the MA - so I did Whitirea...and lo and behold, I ended up with a published novel. Now, if Bill didn't set the bar so high, I would never have leapt so far...so I am very grateful. Had I got into the MA first time around, I imagine I would have been so thrilled, I would have settled for an MA as the peak of my career - whereas rejection sent me off to prove a point and become a published novelist... (of course, whether I am "good" is another story - but I do have a readership and my novel has done reasonably well) - I know I'm not "great" - but hey being published is okay by me. I think Bill has done an enormous amount for writing courses all over New Zealand - lifted the profile - and in the end you have to want it real bad and I did - and I'm just grateful for all of it.

Steve,

Anyone trying to emulate the style of IIML grads in order to make the cut would have a tough job, seeing as they'd have to blend the hugely different styles of, for example, Carl Shuker, Elizabeth Knox, Catherine Chidgey, Tusiata Avia, Hinemoana Baker, Tim Corballis, Rachael King, Stephanie de Montalk, Kirsten McDougall, Eirlys Hunter, etc.

Most grads are middle class, but that goes for any workshop: it's what happens when people have to take time off paid work.

(Another requirement: Eirlys confirmed in a Listener letter that all grads are young and gorgeous; as I am now 37 and sun-damage is showing, I am glad to have taken the precaution of attending an IIML workshop, thus proving my good looks forever.)

Furthermore, an absence of published work to date does not preclude greatness, just as publication (or even attendance at the IIML) does not necessarily provide evidence of it. Despite not yet having published, I reserve my right to be great. Time will tell, as you said earlier.

I do hope you saw the tongue in my cheek in that last comment...

Obviously the style that links Rachael King (The Sound of Butterflies) with Carl Shuker (The Method Actors) with Tusiata Avia (Wild Dogs Under my Skirt) - eh?

Steve -
Thanks for your comments. If you reread my message, you'll see that I wrote that an applicant for the MA " is likely to be a writer of publishable standard" I didn't say anything about their volume of post-MA publication.
Actually, entry to the course IS down to good writing. If you're not good enough, you don't get in.
What style of writing are you referring to? Maybe those wishing to apply for the course could practise : )

Oh how the S word always brings out the closet Manhire fanatics. I like to chuck it in there at those tedious academic luncheons – just to watch my colleagues choke on their cab savs as they scramble over each other to prove me wrong. How dare I suggest that entry into Bill’s class could be arrived at by any method other than creative brilliance! (sorry, I meant greatness). It seems to have had the same effect here.

Jackie – I’m sure you will be great one day: regardless of whether you have an MA or not. I look forward to reading some of your stuff.

Sorry, I said 'Jackie' - I was responding to Susan Pearce.

Goodness I'm now awake in the middle of the night thinking of my next reply. I need to say something so I can go back to sleep. Thanks Steve for weighing in. I would like to reiterate that my orginal comment was not geograhical but political. There are plenty of Wellington writers I admire (quite a few not on the favoured lists) and I am not a South Island fanatic. However when I see the same list of names constantly paraded, I am inclined to ask why that particular list? What writers are missing and why? When I see adjectives like 'acclaimed, great, the best,' placed in front of names I am inclined to ask who is doing the annoiting and why? Steve is right. Great writers are few in number and are only determined by time. Unfortunately in New Zealand, being a small country, we have a lazy media that seizes on celebrity and the 'in crowd'. This applies to literary society as well, and as we have seen in these pages, woe betide anyone who expresses a different view. Don't shoot the messenger, read the message. Automatic homage paid to any writer in the 'in-crowd' does nothing for the creation of good literature as it doesn't encourage or support the expression of a different view. (Think back to the days when women's names were never in the canon or in the anthologies.) Neither does it encourage 'wide reading' or thinking for yourself.

Diane: the 'lazy media' who seize on 'celebrity and the in crowd'? Excuse me? No. The mainstream media hardly bothers itself with NZ books. The media that do pay attention do so with some care - Lynn Freeman on National Radio, the book reviews in major papers. (And with a little googling I turned up that Diane Brown is, yes, an 'award-winning' and 'acclaimed' writer. The 'annointing' was done by the Montana judges.)

Are you serious that we're in an age similar to the bad old days before feminism rearranged the canon? At the risk of being labelled a 'Manhire fanatic', what are the forces of repression apart from the suggestion it's him!

Steve: I have no idea how you get entry into that course but you keep sliding away from telling us.

And what's all this stuff about shooting the messenger?

Having done the Manhire course I feel I can say a few things about it. Firstly I'd take issue with the idea that it promulgates a particular literary style. All one has to do is survey the published (and more importantly, the unpublished) works produced in the course over the years to see there is a greatly varied range of styles.

But. There is a subtextual sameness to the works that I suspect is a consequence of the course endorsing and nurturing a particular literary (cultural?) outlook through recommended readings, selection of visiting authors, and the fact that all writing workshops generally develop a critical consensus. It’s a sociological thing I guess. Within the Manhire course Bill and Damien are the anchors of this process as so their tastes provide a critical centre year after year. I’d be surprised if the Owen Marshall course doesn’t end up the same way. Perhaps the problem is workshops themselves?

As far as the “Wellington” thing goes: any NZ industry that relies on state patronage will be strongest in its Wellington office. It’s about access. I don’t think this is a good situation but I also don’t think it’s Manhire’s fault; he’s just playing the hand he’s been dealt. The fact he’s got a royal flush while southern based writers are stuck with a pair of twos is one of those unfortunate Darwinian circumstances.

The sameness of the VUP stable is another story. There is an opportunity with VUP to be a lot more daring with their publishing decisions than they have been and to cast the net further. The fact that both Carl Shuker and John Dolan have had to publish superb novels with overseas presses is just depressing (although I don’t know the background of these publishing decisions I do know that Dolan’s stunning book didn’t even have a distributor in NZ).

Something I have noticed is that around the country the dissatisfaction with the “Wellington situation” that has been expressed within the literary community for some years is now creeping out into the reading public and with that there seems to be a greater inclination among these nice middleclass people (who actually buy the books) to look beyond Wellington. Let’s hope they’re not disappointed.

The "sameness of the VUP stable" is a myth that should really be put to rest. Take fiction. It's a small list, averaging maybe four titles per year, and in recent years has stretched from Kate Duignan's "mainstream" (NB: these labels are descriptive, not value-weighted) novel Breakwater, to Tim Corballis's "Austrian" novels, to Jo Randerson's fables. Just to take a very small sample. Our recent poetry list stretches from Anna Smaill to Tusiata Avia to David Beach. Which are the publishers that are more "daring"?

Steve - Can you please expand on your position that Bill's course relies on a particular style. I see that lots of other messages have asked that you define this style, but you don't seem willing to do so, Perhaps you could put your money where your mouth is.

To Darryl - to get into Bill's course, you have to submit ten pages of your writing. One can surmise, then, that the best applicants, ie, the best writers, get accepted into the course. That's why I suggested earlier in this stream, that the writers that are accepted into the MA, are probably already of a publishable standard.

Jackie wrote, "to get into Bill's course, you have to submit ten pages of your writing."

Only ten? How does that work? Ten pages of a single story, or what? (With such a restriction, I would have trouble being able to even submit a single short story, and I would hate to be assessed on something other than a complete work (other than, perhaps, a novel, which would have to be a snippet only).

I guess I can see how you could gain an opinion on the strength of someone's writing on only ten pages, but give the enormity of the undertaking to do the course, I thought it might have been based on a more substantial body of work submitted.

How embarrassing Darryl, I had no idea or even any wish to be called acclaimed. Robinson makes some valid points, but I'd just like to clear up one matter. Owen Marshall's Aoraki Fiction Writing course in Timaru was taken over by myself four years ago when it shifted to Dunedin, and is now an Advanced Certificate in Creative Writing covering poetry and creative non/fiction as well as fiction.

Jackie –

I think Robinson has summed it up nicely.

"There is a subtextual sameness to the works that I suspect is a consequence of the course endorsing and nurturing a particular literary (cultural?) outlook through recommended readings, selection of visiting authors, and the fact that all writing workshops generally develop a critical consensus."

And seeing as she’s done the course, she should know. But while we’re on the subject of putting your money where your mouth is, can you please explain to me just how it would be possibly to deduce greatness from 10 double spaced A4s?

Diane: and is Robinson right that your course suffers in comparison with the Manhire one in terms of access to funding? What about numbers of students applying? Do you feel you've been dealt a pair of twos? (I also found Robinson's comment very interesting seeing as they come from the inside.)

By the way, Mark and Steve, have you ever sat on an interview panel? Researchers have shown that decisions are made on suitability within the first 3 minutes. I think 10 pages is enough but probably hard for the writer to choose the right ten pages. Track record in terms of publishing shows that the course gets things right more than not surely?

I have no doubt the style of VUP’s offerings are distinct (could someone give an encompassing definition of style please?) but fear that they are distinct in the same way as the styles of various advertising agencies are. That is to say, they may all look and sound different but in the end they all serve the same purpose – selling the product.

In the case of VUP the product is a particular literary and cultural outlook. I’m not willing to delve into what defines that outlook or its merits compared, for example, to the outlook and merits thereof of the “southern writers” as that’s the kind of discussion that requires significant involvement, but I am willing to express my opinion that most readers intuitively read through the text toward these outlooks and generate connections between ostensibly different works at an almost subliminal level.

When these readers are asked to explain these connections they will inevitably reach for a nebulous term like “style” unless they have an unusually sound sense of the many rhetorical tricks one can use to endorse a cultural outlook, can recognise these tricks well enough to determine exactly what that outlook is, and can create a logical narrative of how two works might share it without resorting to phrases such as “they both make me feel like…”

Also, while “daring” may have been the wrong term to use in regard to publishing, “plural” isn’t and there is perhaps a more varied set of outlooks up for sale at AUP in that their catalogue carries poets like Richard Reeve alongside poets like Chris Price.

I’ll admit right now I haven’t read all of VUP’s offerings but those I have read (and have to different extents enjoyed) do appear to share similar outlooks and I’ve had enough discussions with people around the country to know that I’m not the only one who feels this way; it is starting to feel like a critical consensus. But that’s not so bad really, after all a whole lot of stylistically different bands made up the “Dunedin Sound” and that taxonomy doesn’t mean “She Speeds” isn’t one of the coolest songs ever written (it really is).

Dear Mark,

Don't panic; it's a minimum of ten pages and a maximum of 20. I don't believe there are any restrictions on line spacing or even font type and size. You could fit in quite a lot of small words if you limit your margin size.

Penny

"Track record in terms of publishing says the course gets it right surely?"

Track record in terms of sales says exactly the opposite-

I"d love to see a correlation between CNZ grants, IIML, published work & sales - Fergus, willing / able to do this?

Sorry, Islander, I don't have the data for that. Even the VUP info would take a lot of time to put together; and I'd have to go well beyond VUP and I'm don't know how open all the other publishers would be about sharing commercially sensitive figures.

You seem to be suggesting that the VUW creative writing progamme has "produced" writers whose books don't sell. Yes, there have been a fair few poets, short story writers and experimental novelists over the years; but also Elizabeth Knox, Jenny Pattrick, Barbara Anderson, Emily Perkins, Catherine Chidgey, Anthony McCarten, Kirsty Gunn . . . the list goes on.

Hallo, I am writing from Germany, and have been some years ago a student at Mannheim of New Zealand authors. These debates are of very great interest to me. Are they significant in your country? We do not have such debates here. With many thanks for your attention.

Darryl: "Coming from an insider"?! Steady on man, it's not watergate - all I'm saying is the IML has produced a school of writing and it's done quite well as a meme due to extrinsic factors like access - that's the way the world works. It is what it am, etc

Islander: I've heard that "gentlemen's magazines" sell quite well - should VUP diversify?

Darryl –

You’re confusing me – I thought we were talking about literature, not some pop-psyc business mumbo jumbo about interview panels. Oh and by the way, yes I have – and it took us weeks to reach a decision.

Robinson: sorry for appearing too keen there. All I meant was you'd done the course. But why do I feel I've now enrolled in your own course VUP 101? Is there anyone left on this thread who doesn't feel fantastically patronised by that wee lecture on what readers are able or unable to pick up?

Hello to Walter from Germany. Perhaps you could tell us which New Zealand authors you studied at Mannheim (I'm presuming you mean the city in Germany and this is not some linguistic humour relating to Bill Manhire)...

Who were you reading Walter? And your question...is this type of debate usual? - well, now it is - thanks to Leafsalon.

Have you heard of Sarah Quigley who is a NZ writer in Berlin?

Robinson - 'gentleman's magazines'- what the fuck are you talking about??
Fergus- you havent given us a breakdown of CNZ input - cheers, Islander

I'm not sure what "correlation" or "breakdown" of CNZ funding to the literature sector you're asking for, Islander.

Total sector funding has increased significantly over the years, but direct funding to publishers in the form of publishing grants has increased much more slowly. If anyone can provide figures, CNZ can.

Those grants vary from up to 50% of total above-the-line production costs for poetry, to less than 20% for some fiction and non-fiction.

Is that what you mean?

Darryl: Yeah, everyone on this thread feels patronised. Sure thing bro, uh, no, hold on most people just sensibly ignored it – why didn’t you? What have you got to prove? Or should that be: “what do you feel you have to prove and why are you reaching out for back-up with this 'anyone' line?” Nice use of the word “wee” by the way – I feel like I’ve been talked down to by a Scotsman. And what are you doing google-stalking Diane Brown? Don’t you have better things to do?

Islander: I’m talking porn, love – it sells lots and I just kind of figured that if we’re using your volume-of-sales yardstick to determine literary worth then surely that’s the direction VUP should head in? Is there a CNZ grant for the great New Zealand pornographic novel? Should there be?

Fergus: What does "above-the-line production costs" mean?

Direct production cost like editing, proofreading, design, typesetting etc

Thanks for pointing out my use of 'anyone'. You're right Robinson, I should have used a more neutral phrase like 'critical consensus' and 'discussions with people around the country' to support my personal assertions. You sound like you're on the hustings, bro.

To answer Darryl, We don't get funding from CNZ for courses. IML has benefited from private funding and good on them for that. I don't think I have been dealt a pair of twos particularly. However there is always some disquiet in the literary community about various funding bodies and where the money goes to.

As far as selection on my course goes, I don't get as many applications as IML. I select students on the basis of life experience as much as on their writing and like to get a very broad cross section. Age, gender, background, I value difference of opinion and difference of writing style.

Hallo Maggie,
Thank you for your answer. I have studied Mansfield, the story writer, of course. We have also been able to study an Australian Henry Lawson. We have studied to Maori people Witi Ihimaera and Hone Tuwhare. Herr Dr Fischer, my teacher at Mannheim, once met Mr Tuwhare. Some years ago I have started reading The Bone People, but it was very confusing for me. Now I will start reading the german translation Unter dem Tagmond. Sarah Quigley I do not know, but I will look for her work now, thank you.
With friendly greetings,
Walter

Robinson - you've squashed my comment into a box of your making: porn sells magazines & stuff(including e-sites) - it doesnt sell serious ANZ fiction* which was what I was - and am- concerned about. Aside from Fergus's named bestsellers, v. few indeed are the graduates of the IIML who appear on ANZ bestseller lists. Readers keep writers alive (most literally - as a reader, I'd also say vice cersa) and readers who actually buy books mean ANZ writers can continue to write.

Talking about porn is kind of childish.

*The really serious sales in ANZ- & throughout the world- by our writers come from romantic fiction (and, under pseudonyms, crime, fantasy, and yep, porn works.) I'll never match Essie Summers in sales and no other writer-of-serious-fiction here can either.

dear Islander, I can think of one serious NZ novel that is rumoured to have sold 2 million + copies. Apparently Essie Summers' 55 novels sold some 19 million....?

Kia ora Anon - I too know of a ANZ novel that has sold over (to date, going by royalty sheets) 1.5 million copies - but that is in 9 languages, and many different editions, and a 22year publishing span...Essie (bless her dead pen!) doesnt have much to worry about eh/
O, speaking of benchmarks: The Booksellers platinum-unto-brass setup will not acknowledge my paticular novel because - the initial publishers no longer exist (despite the thing selling over 75000 copies within first 2 years of publications (by ANZ publishers)-

now, why do I find the NZ Booksellers latest push - self serving? And truly gratuitously & bizarrely wrong?

(I havent yet done anything about it, but my very first book ever poetry which won no awards - sold over 3000 copies: I await AUP promotion of this fact-

" ... the initial publishers no longer exist (despite the thing selling over 75000 copies within first 2 years of publications (by ANZ publishers)-

now, why do I find the NZ Booksellers latest push - self serving? And truly gratuitously & bizarrely wrong?"

Absurd. We seem to have inculcated bureaucracy (rule making, and the slavish following of) in NZ, and turned it into a way of life.

Islander has put her finger on a couple of weaknesses in the Premier New Zealand Bestsellers promotion. Because the publisher has to be a member of Booksellers NZ, has to pay a submission fee of $200 per book, and has to be able to provide evidence of the sales claimed, books like The Bone People with complicated publishing histories are unlikely to be entered. The fee alone means that books that are no longer being actively promoted are unlikely to be entered.

It is also a very complicated promotion, with bronze, silver, gold and platinum stickers awarded for different sales levels in four categories: fiction, non-fiction, children’s and (now) poetry. One consequence of this is that the sticker tells everyone how many copies a book hasn’t sold, as well has how many it has. That a Deutz Medal-winning novel has sold more than five but fewer than ten thousand copies might be regarded as a mixed message.

For these and other reasons, no one can assume that the books with stickers really are “New Zealand’s long-term favourite books”.

There has been no discussion of this promotion that I’ve noticed, and I have no idea how well known or effective it is. I would be very interested in anyone else’s views.

The conversation is continuing over at the new LeafSalon forum:

http://www.leafsalon.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9